Comments on: An Invitation to Manhood http://www.tomcottar.org/2006/05/17/an-invitation-to-manhood/ ...conversation for the Journey... Wed, 05 Oct 2011 14:54:58 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: tom cottar http://www.tomcottar.org/2006/05/17/an-invitation-to-manhood/comment-page-1/#comment-301 tom cottar Sat, 20 May 2006 02:58:00 +0000 http://www.tomcottar.org/2006/05/17/an-invitation-to-manhood/#comment-301 So that settles it. Godliness = soul patch, black t-shirt and strong coffee. Manlines = hiking boots, red plaid flannel, and a hearty chorus. If you can't sing good, sing loud..."I'm a lumberjack and I'm o.k., ..." So that settles it.

Godliness = soul patch, black t-shirt and strong coffee.

Manlines = hiking boots, red plaid flannel, and a hearty chorus.

If you can’t sing good, sing loud…”I’m a lumberjack and I’m o.k., …”

]]> By: scott m http://www.tomcottar.org/2006/05/17/an-invitation-to-manhood/comment-page-1/#comment-300 scott m Fri, 19 May 2006 23:02:00 +0000 http://www.tomcottar.org/2006/05/17/an-invitation-to-manhood/#comment-300 A goatee?!?! Hogwash! If the emphasis is on masculinity, it's got to be a full beard. Be a manly man. (I can feel a chorus of "I'm a lumberjack" building) If it's on godliness, then only a soul patch will do! Sheesh. Everyone knows that. :-P A goatee?!?! Hogwash!

If the emphasis is on masculinity, it’s got to be a full beard. Be a manly man. (I can feel a chorus of “I’m a lumberjack” building)

If it’s on godliness, then only a soul patch will do!

Sheesh. Everyone knows that. :-P

]]> By: Jimmie W. Kersh http://www.tomcottar.org/2006/05/17/an-invitation-to-manhood/comment-page-1/#comment-299 Jimmie W. Kersh Fri, 19 May 2006 22:35:00 +0000 http://www.tomcottar.org/2006/05/17/an-invitation-to-manhood/#comment-299 Tom, I want to contribute to that one. I would say a gotee is required. Tom,
I want to contribute to that one. I would say a gotee is required.

]]> By: tom cottar http://www.tomcottar.org/2006/05/17/an-invitation-to-manhood/comment-page-1/#comment-298 tom cottar Fri, 19 May 2006 16:40:00 +0000 http://www.tomcottar.org/2006/05/17/an-invitation-to-manhood/#comment-298 At the risk of sounding like a doctoral thesis (which I'm trying to avoid like typhoid), I'm going to continue this thread as a new post next week: An Invitation to Manhood: An Exploration of Godliness and Masculinity in the Life of Tom Cottar within the context of inhabiting the Biblical narrative in an evangelical, conservative subculture in central Texas. At the risk of sounding like a doctoral thesis (which I’m trying to avoid like typhoid), I’m going to continue this thread as a new post next week:

An Invitation to Manhood: An Exploration of Godliness and Masculinity in the Life of Tom Cottar within the context of inhabiting the Biblical narrative in an evangelical, conservative subculture in central Texas.

]]> By: scott m http://www.tomcottar.org/2006/05/17/an-invitation-to-manhood/comment-page-1/#comment-297 scott m Fri, 19 May 2006 01:59:00 +0000 http://www.tomcottar.org/2006/05/17/an-invitation-to-manhood/#comment-297 OK. I thought of a zillion one-liners off that last sentence, but I'll restrain myself. :-P I generally agree with Jimmie. I don't think there are any examples of 'godly' manhood outside Jesus. And Jesus' instructions are clear. Love God (by following him) and love others. None of that is easy and it certainly requires significant spiritual formation. But the others? Abraham pimping out his wife. Twice! Isaac trying to weasel around God's plans for his sons. And he had apparently learned the wife-pimping thing from his father. Jacob ... well there's certainly a lot there. Noah. Sure, he listened to God when apparently nobody else would, but that's damning him with faint praise. He was also the drunkard who was willing to actually curse his son. (Chris Seay has a great two-parter on the flood and Noah.) None of my comments should be taken as lessening the importance of good role models or mentors for the sort of parent or husband you would like to be. That's important. It's associating the appellation 'godly' with it that bugs me. OK. I thought of a zillion one-liners off that last sentence, but I’ll restrain myself. :-P

I generally agree with Jimmie. I don’t think there are any examples of ‘godly’ manhood outside Jesus. And Jesus’ instructions are clear. Love God (by following him) and love others. None of that is easy and it certainly requires significant spiritual formation. But the others? Abraham pimping out his wife. Twice! Isaac trying to weasel around God’s plans for his sons. And he had apparently learned the wife-pimping thing from his father. Jacob … well there’s certainly a lot there. Noah. Sure, he listened to God when apparently nobody else would, but that’s damning him with faint praise. He was also the drunkard who was willing to actually curse his son. (Chris Seay has a great two-parter on the flood and Noah.)

None of my comments should be taken as lessening the importance of good role models or mentors for the sort of parent or husband you would like to be. That’s important. It’s associating the appellation ‘godly’ with it that bugs me.

]]> By: Jimmie W. Kersh http://www.tomcottar.org/2006/05/17/an-invitation-to-manhood/comment-page-1/#comment-296 Jimmie W. Kersh Fri, 19 May 2006 01:03:00 +0000 http://www.tomcottar.org/2006/05/17/an-invitation-to-manhood/#comment-296 I am not sure (Biblically Speaking) that there is anything past the Fruit of the Spirit concerning Godliness. I know from my own life that there are things I associate with Godly men, but it does not come from the Biblical text. Personally, I would be careful not to deviate from the Biblical text concerning this one. It does become cultural I am afraid once the Biblical text is bypassed. There is only one Biblical man I would consider as a Godly man and they killed Him for it. The flaws of the other guys are too numerous to make them examples. I know people love David or Abraham, but they were not what I would consider Godly men. They may have been me of faith, but not Godly. Maybe we need to make the Son the Godly man to follow as our example. I hate being a sour grape on the issue, but I do not know any man that I would like my boys to grow up immulating other than the Son. Just the Fruit and the Son. I am not sure (Biblically Speaking) that there is anything past the Fruit of the Spirit concerning Godliness. I know from my own life that there are things I associate with Godly men, but it does not come from the Biblical text.

Personally, I would be careful not to deviate from the Biblical text concerning this one. It does become cultural I am afraid once the Biblical text is bypassed.

There is only one Biblical man I would consider as a Godly man and they killed Him for it. The flaws of the other guys are too numerous to make them examples. I know people love David or Abraham, but they were not what I would consider Godly men. They may have been me of faith, but not Godly.

Maybe we need to make the Son the Godly man to follow as our example. I hate being a sour grape on the issue, but I do not know any man that I would like my boys to grow up immulating other than the Son.

Just the Fruit and the Son.

]]> By: tom cottar http://www.tomcottar.org/2006/05/17/an-invitation-to-manhood/comment-page-1/#comment-295 tom cottar Thu, 18 May 2006 20:25:00 +0000 http://www.tomcottar.org/2006/05/17/an-invitation-to-manhood/#comment-295 A "Godly man" is one whose life is producing the fruits of the Spirit. Jimmie, I can buy that as a starting point. Good summary. Now, first of all, how does that translate into your maturation from a boy to a man? Does it express itself differently in your life as you relate to Anita and/or Josh than it does as she relates to you and Josh? Yes, there are some basic traits that translate across gender....but how does that manifest itself in MY LIFE? How does that make me a better husband? Father? And secondly, is that ALL there is to defining a 'godly man'? just questions.... A “Godly man” is one whose life is producing the fruits of the Spirit.

Jimmie,
I can buy that as a starting point. Good summary.

Now, first of all, how does that translate into your maturation from a boy to a man? Does it express itself differently in your life as you relate to Anita and/or Josh than it does as she relates to you and Josh?

Yes, there are some basic traits that translate across gender….but how does that manifest itself in MY LIFE? How does that make me a better husband? Father?

And secondly, is that ALL there is to defining a ‘godly man’?

just questions….

]]> By: scott m http://www.tomcottar.org/2006/05/17/an-invitation-to-manhood/comment-page-1/#comment-294 scott m Thu, 18 May 2006 19:28:00 +0000 http://www.tomcottar.org/2006/05/17/an-invitation-to-manhood/#comment-294 OK. That statement is much clearer and I got your thought just fine this time. It feels somewhat similar to part of what I'm saying and I certainly have no disagreement with it. It's another way to described the spiritually formed person. OK. That statement is much clearer and I got your thought just fine this time. It feels somewhat similar to part of what I’m saying and I certainly have no disagreement with it. It’s another way to described the spiritually formed person.

]]> By: Jimmie W. Kersh http://www.tomcottar.org/2006/05/17/an-invitation-to-manhood/comment-page-1/#comment-293 Jimmie W. Kersh Thu, 18 May 2006 15:20:00 +0000 http://www.tomcottar.org/2006/05/17/an-invitation-to-manhood/#comment-293 I just went back and re-read my post. have you ever noticed that late at night some things seem to make since and then when you wake up and are refreshed you wonder "what the heck was that all about?" I just had one of those moments. I think it would have been easier to say in one sentence. A "Godly man" is one whose life is producing the fruits of the Spirit. Sorry for late night incoherence. I must remember to think in the mornings and vegitate at night, it makes the world a better place. I just went back and re-read my post. have you ever noticed that late at night some things seem to make since and then when you wake up and are refreshed you wonder “what the heck was that all about?” I just had one of those moments.

I think it would have been easier to say in one sentence.

A “Godly man” is one whose life is producing the fruits of the Spirit.

Sorry for late night incoherence. I must remember to think in the mornings and vegitate at night, it makes the world a better place.

]]> By: scott m http://www.tomcottar.org/2006/05/17/an-invitation-to-manhood/comment-page-1/#comment-292 scott m Thu, 18 May 2006 14:34:00 +0000 http://www.tomcottar.org/2006/05/17/an-invitation-to-manhood/#comment-292 I'm going to step back a little in my processing of the question. Let's say that there is some list of specific traits of the male gender that are not the result of hormones (or other physical factors) or culture, that are not generally shared by the female gender, <B>AND</B> that can specifically be identified as "godly." I can't think of any, but let's say they do exist and the failing is mine. And let's say we're able to discern those traits and thus have a list of the traits that make a "godly man" or which define "godly manhood." (I think it's a symptom of American culture that we're obsessed by "lists" of all sorts, but that's a different discussion). That leads to the key question. What are you going to do with that list? If it's a list of characteristics which you happen to have in abundance, how will that make you feel? Careful how you answer. If it's a list that seems impossible for you, how will it not condemn? As humans we've been building these "lists" from all sorts of sources to describe all sorts of people throughout history. Our track record in the manner they've been used is very poor. I get the sense that this question is pushing directly against some of my own cultural distinctives, which probably explains my reaction to it. In another direction, the belief that we are all somehow "partial" images of God is a very, very risky one to toy with. That idea is very, very close to some of the distinctly pagan beliefs I had once extracted. In my case, I had melded the 'christian' creation account (more or less) with my beliefs specifically to arrive at this point. In other words, whether 'god' was one, plural, or a less directly personal entity, women (mostly) embodied the feminine aspect of 'god', while men (mostly) embodied the masculine aspect of 'god.' There are many paths you can travel from that juncture. No, I tend to now fully embrace the orthodox Christian belief that, whatever else may be true, men and women all carry the full Imago Dei. I don't know exactly what that means but, though cracked, we are all full Eikons of God. And as such we all have at least some access to all the traits of God. The nurturer can be the warrior if needed. The warrior can (and I would say should) nurture as well. There are lots of gender distinctives out there. Some seem pretty good. Some less so. (It's a pain in the neck as a Christian that lots of testosterone also leaves us with much easier access to anger. That makes it harder for us to practice appropriate restraint. Anger can energize tremendously, but out of control, it's highly destructive.) Others fairly neutral. But traits that are specifically and identifiably 'godly manhood', that is aspects of 'manhood' that are distinctly 'godly' traits and are also exclusively male? I'm skeptical. Further, I'm unconvinced it's an appropriate focus. We are men. If we seek to become spiritually formed in the manner we are instructed, is not the result that we become more godly men? But I do see that as the end result and not the goal or the pursuit. Pursue Jesus deliberately and with intent and discipline, and it strikes me that lots of good things happen. Pursue anything else, however good it may appear, and I'm less convinced. Jimmie, I don't want to give the impression that I'm ignoring your thoughts. My lack of comment stems from the fact that I'm unable to come up with any. The way it reads to me seems to imply a number of specific theological doctrines with which I don't connect at all. So I can think of nothing to say that wouldn't be completely tangential. I’m going to step back a little in my processing of the question. Let’s say that there is some list of specific traits of the male gender that are not the result of hormones (or other physical factors) or culture, that are not generally shared by the female gender, AND that can specifically be identified as “godly.” I can’t think of any, but let’s say they do exist and the failing is mine. And let’s say we’re able to discern those traits and thus have a list of the traits that make a “godly man” or which define “godly manhood.” (I think it’s a symptom of American culture that we’re obsessed by “lists” of all sorts, but that’s a different discussion). That leads to the key question.

What are you going to do with that list? If it’s a list of characteristics which you happen to have in abundance, how will that make you feel? Careful how you answer. If it’s a list that seems impossible for you, how will it not condemn? As humans we’ve been building these “lists” from all sorts of sources to describe all sorts of people throughout history. Our track record in the manner they’ve been used is very poor.

I get the sense that this question is pushing directly against some of my own cultural distinctives, which probably explains my reaction to it.

In another direction, the belief that we are all somehow “partial” images of God is a very, very risky one to toy with. That idea is very, very close to some of the distinctly pagan beliefs I had once extracted. In my case, I had melded the ‘christian’ creation account (more or less) with my beliefs specifically to arrive at this point. In other words, whether ‘god’ was one, plural, or a less directly personal entity, women (mostly) embodied the feminine aspect of ‘god’, while men (mostly) embodied the masculine aspect of ‘god.’ There are many paths you can travel from that juncture.

No, I tend to now fully embrace the orthodox Christian belief that, whatever else may be true, men and women all carry the full Imago Dei. I don’t know exactly what that means but, though cracked, we are all full Eikons of God. And as such we all have at least some access to all the traits of God. The nurturer can be the warrior if needed. The warrior can (and I would say should) nurture as well.

There are lots of gender distinctives out there. Some seem pretty good. Some less so. (It’s a pain in the neck as a Christian that lots of testosterone also leaves us with much easier access to anger. That makes it harder for us to practice appropriate restraint. Anger can energize tremendously, but out of control, it’s highly destructive.) Others fairly neutral. But traits that are specifically and identifiably ‘godly manhood’, that is aspects of ‘manhood’ that are distinctly ‘godly’ traits and are also exclusively male? I’m skeptical.

Further, I’m unconvinced it’s an appropriate focus. We are men. If we seek to become spiritually formed in the manner we are instructed, is not the result that we become more godly men? But I do see that as the end result and not the goal or the pursuit. Pursue Jesus deliberately and with intent and discipline, and it strikes me that lots of good things happen. Pursue anything else, however good it may appear, and I’m less convinced.

Jimmie, I don’t want to give the impression that I’m ignoring your thoughts. My lack of comment stems from the fact that I’m unable to come up with any. The way it reads to me seems to imply a number of specific theological doctrines with which I don’t connect at all. So I can think of nothing to say that wouldn’t be completely tangential.

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