Comments on: Forgetting and Straining, Part One http://www.tomcottar.org/2008/01/10/forgetting-and-straining-part-one/ ...conversation for the Journey... Wed, 08 Sep 2010 19:35:40 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: scott http://www.tomcottar.org/2008/01/10/forgetting-and-straining-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-14454 scott Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:56:26 +0000 http://www.tomcottar.org/2008/01/10/forgetting-and-straining-part-one/#comment-14454 I think millersus captured that aspect of my thought. The things which were crap to Paul in the context of the passage we're discussing were those things by which he thought he was established as a Hebrew of Hebrews, a Pharisee, one of the tsadiqim. In the broader picture, all things need to be subordinated to the one we name Lord. We must deny ourselves as we take up our own cross daily. But we see in verse 9 again that Paul is returning to his accomplishments according to Torah and birth, which he also references in verse 7. Taking verse 8, then, and calling everything crap, including the good gifts of God we are told elsewhere to enjoy in their proper place, seems to me to be taking it too far. Of course, as we fail to subordinate that which we have to Jesus, as we think we have achieved it for ourselves, it becomes crap. This is, I think, one of the ever-present dangers for the rich. Wealth allows us to manage and control our choices and their consequences. It's a tool by which we mask reality. I think millersus captured that aspect of my thought. The things which were crap to Paul in the context of the passage we’re discussing were those things by which he thought he was established as a Hebrew of Hebrews, a Pharisee, one of the tsadiqim.

In the broader picture, all things need to be subordinated to the one we name Lord. We must deny ourselves as we take up our own cross daily. But we see in verse 9 again that Paul is returning to his accomplishments according to Torah and birth, which he also references in verse 7. Taking verse 8, then, and calling everything crap, including the good gifts of God we are told elsewhere to enjoy in their proper place, seems to me to be taking it too far.

Of course, as we fail to subordinate that which we have to Jesus, as we think we have achieved it for ourselves, it becomes crap. This is, I think, one of the ever-present dangers for the rich. Wealth allows us to manage and control our choices and their consequences. It’s a tool by which we mask reality.

]]> By: millersus http://www.tomcottar.org/2008/01/10/forgetting-and-straining-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-14451 millersus Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:20:04 +0000 http://www.tomcottar.org/2008/01/10/forgetting-and-straining-part-one/#comment-14451 So, I'm processing this as I'm writing. IMO, those things family, kids, life itself are to the believer gifts from God. Truly blessings that God has given as we strive to know him and follow him. Those things we attain under our own power, or those accolades like Paul's that we hung our hats on before Christ are now like dung, sawdust, empty and useless in His greater scheme of things. So, I’m processing this as I’m writing. IMO, those things family, kids, life itself are to the believer gifts from God. Truly blessings that God has given as we strive to know him and follow him. Those things we attain under our own power, or those accolades like Paul’s that we hung our hats on before Christ are now like dung, sawdust, empty and useless in His greater scheme of things.

]]> By: tom cottar http://www.tomcottar.org/2008/01/10/forgetting-and-straining-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-14449 tom cottar Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:51:14 +0000 http://www.tomcottar.org/2008/01/10/forgetting-and-straining-part-one/#comment-14449 maybe I'm misunderstanding your comments. IMO, there could be a significant difference between 'subordinating' things to Christ and relegating them to skubulon... :) And, I'm thinking of things we typically see as 'achievements', as you and Paul both mention--learning, pedigree, seminary, status, etc. Subordinating things to Christ would seem to make all those things 'secondary' to Him, at least in my mind. Paul seems pretty adamant that they are not secondary, but excrement. I'm not sure what would be 'secondary' but not 'excrement', outside of knowing Christ...can you give me some examples? maybe I’m misunderstanding your comments. IMO, there could be a significant difference between ‘subordinating’ things to Christ and relegating them to skubulon… :) And, I’m thinking of things we typically see as ‘achievements’, as you and Paul both mention–learning, pedigree, seminary, status, etc.

Subordinating things to Christ would seem to make all those things ‘secondary’ to Him, at least in my mind. Paul seems pretty adamant that they are not secondary, but excrement. I’m not sure what would be ‘secondary’ but not ‘excrement’, outside of knowing Christ…can you give me some examples?

]]> By: scott http://www.tomcottar.org/2008/01/10/forgetting-and-straining-part-one/comment-page-1/#comment-14448 scott Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:40:45 +0000 http://www.tomcottar.org/2008/01/10/forgetting-and-straining-part-one/#comment-14448 In verses 3-6 Paul discusses his excellence according to the law, that he was a Hebrew of Hebrews, a Pharisee. It seems to be those things he has counted loss for Christ, the only source of true righteousness, in verse 7. And Paul may know he is not yet perfected -- indeed none of us will be fully perfected until the Resurrection of the Dead according to our firstfruit Jesus -- yet in verse 17 he explicitly tells them to follow his example and use others who so walk as their pattern. (Hmmm. Sounds suspiciously like recognizing those in the communion of all the saints who can provide example and direction for those of us bringing up the rear.) I do agree that this (and many other passages) says quite clearly that we must subordinate all to Jesus the liberating king. And all things which stand in our way doing so are dung. But I'm not convinced that's the same thing as saying all things are dung. In fact, as Paul himself writes elsewhere, many of them are good. We are the eikons of the living God. And to the extent we become people being restored and fulfilling our role reflecting the one whose image we bear into creation, I hear God saying not just good, but very good. But it does all begin by learning to subordinating everything to Jesus of Nazareth. And that's a lifelong pursuit and discipline. I would say I've barely scratched the surface. In verses 3-6 Paul discusses his excellence according to the law, that he was a Hebrew of Hebrews, a Pharisee. It seems to be those things he has counted loss for Christ, the only source of true righteousness, in verse 7. And Paul may know he is not yet perfected — indeed none of us will be fully perfected until the Resurrection of the Dead according to our firstfruit Jesus — yet in verse 17 he explicitly tells them to follow his example and use others who so walk as their pattern. (Hmmm. Sounds suspiciously like recognizing those in the communion of all the saints who can provide example and direction for those of us bringing up the rear.)

I do agree that this (and many other passages) says quite clearly that we must subordinate all to Jesus the liberating king. And all things which stand in our way doing so are dung. But I’m not convinced that’s the same thing as saying all things are dung. In fact, as Paul himself writes elsewhere, many of them are good. We are the eikons of the living God. And to the extent we become people being restored and fulfilling our role reflecting the one whose image we bear into creation, I hear God saying not just good, but very good.

But it does all begin by learning to subordinating everything to Jesus of Nazareth. And that’s a lifelong pursuit and discipline. I would say I’ve barely scratched the surface.

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